Wednesday, May 9, 2007

Salvations?

Lector: In the last post here it was pointed out that if there is anything at all that we have to do to "get right with God," even if it is simply "trusting Jesus," then salvation would be by work and not grace as it would be a transaction between us and God. So how does one get saved apart from some sort of transaction?

Auctor: The only way for that to work would be if faith came after salvation. The faith one has would be faith that Christ has already saved them, in other words.

Lector: So then what does faith do for us if we're already saved?

Auctor: Why it saves us, of course.

Lector: Ah, of course, it... wait, it does what? If we're already saved how do we get saved again?

Auctor: Because "salvation" isn't always the same thing as salvation. The same word can mean different things.

Lector: So "salvation" means two different things then?

Auctor: Actually it can mean many more than just two things, but for what we're discussing here it actually refers to three different things.

Lector: Do tell.

Auctor: Well, to begin with, there is ontological salvation. This is the salvation I already referred to, the salvation that God gives us even before we begin to have any faith. This salvation happened to all of us in Christ apart from anything we have done or will do. When Christ died all died, and when He rose all rose, and we have all been saved, ontologically speaking, in Him.

Lector: That's a pretty bold statement.

Auctor: It is.

Lector: How do you justify such a claim?

Auctor: It's not my intention to even try to do so right now, that would too big a tangent for this discussion. For now it's enough to remember that if God doesn't save us apart from anything we do then salvation is a transaction.

Lector: Okay. So what about faith?

Auctor: That's the second sort (or stage) of salvation, what I refer to as noological salvation. While ontological salvation is (among other things) union with God through Christ, noological salvation is freedom from the power of sin by being given knowledge of our ontological salvation and truly believing it. Faith, in other words. When someone comes to realize that they are already united to God through Christ and that there is nothing they have to do to please God or earn His forgiveness they are freed from the power of sin, which is the law or religion.

Lector: Ah, I see. But you mentioned three different types of salvation. What's the third one?

Auctor: That would be what I refer to as sacramental salvation, the physical realizing of salvation which occurs at our resurrection when the mortal puts on immortality and we can finally see the salvation that we had all along in Christ.

Lector: Interesting. So we've been saved, we're being saved, and we will be saved, all at the same time.

Auctor: That's one way to put it. As long as we remember that there is nothing that we ourselves do to gain any of these salvations.

Lector: But what about faith? If we have to have faith to have what you called noological salvation then isn't that still a transaction?

Auctor: Not if the faith is given to us by God. Remember, we're saved by grace through faith, and that is not of ourselves but is a gift from God. The only way that it can be a gift is if God gives us the faith. If we have to build that salvific faith up then it would be a work.

Lector: Even if it's just the amount of a mustard seed?

Auctor: Even that would still be a work. We don't have to worry though. Only God can give us the faith that is necessary for the freedom that is noological salvation, we couldn't possibly muster it up on our own anyway.

9 comments:

Gem said...

Wow. I'm going to have to read this a few more times. I have to say it's knocked me on my CoC butt!

Tammy said...

very nice, Drew. This sounds similar to things I've heard preached, but they never went as far as you go. They use the ideas, but your main premise about salvation being completely gift and not at all a transaction, is rarely expounded upon. I think it scares those who have investments in the organized religious systems. If there is no transaction, then what leverage remains to keep people in the system??? ;)

Seraphim said...

If you're going to quote Fr. Capon at least name the book you're lifting from. I can't tell if its fingerprints of God or health money and salvation and why we don't enjoy them

LYB

Seraphim

The Christian Heretic said...

It's not a quote, I actually wrote it myself. :) Fr. Capon didn't invent the Auctor/Lector writing style. :)

Seraphim said...

Well then, kudo's to you! It looked alot like something he'd written in one of the two aforementioned books.

LYB

Seraphim

geo said...

The problem as I see it is that people get Redemption which is eternal and includes ALL OF MANKIND and of the Spirit confused with Salvation which is of The Soul i.e. The Mind, Will and Emotions

Peace
Geo

The Christian Heretic said...

I really like that way of putting it, Geo. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Have you heard of/read any of C. Baxter Kruger?

The Christian Heretic said...

Have you heard of/read any of C. Baxter Kruger?

No, can't say that I have.