On a Christian message board I sometimes visit we've been discussing the issue of hell which got me to thinking and I came up with a challenge for Protestant Christians who base their theology on the Bible alone:
Demonstrate convincingly that the idea that "those who die without putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone to save them (apart from any works) will end up in a place of torment called hell forever with no chance of escape" is a much clearer teaching in Scripture than the idea that "hell is not a place of everlasting torment." You must not contradict any other parts of Scripture or any other of your own theological positions in order to demonstrate this.
Demonstrate convincingly that the idea that "those who die without putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone to save them (apart from any works) will end up in a place of torment called hell forever with no chance of escape" is a much clearer teaching in Scripture than the idea that "hell is not a place of everlasting torment." You must not contradict any other parts of Scripture or any other of your own theological positions in order to demonstrate this.
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Good luck with that Drew. You're a more patient man than I. I long ago gave up on trying to interact with those jerks that took over the Ooze. It's just not worth it. You're never going to penetrate their shell; and if you come close they'll just start slinging insults.
But it's a good approach. It's been revolutionary to me personally to actually come back to scripture as you suggest and see what it actually does say about hell. The truth is, not much. I can't believe how much of an elaborate theology we've built up on a few dozen random verses.
Good luck with that Drew. You're a more patient man than I. I long ago gave up on trying to interact with those jerks that took over the Ooze. It's just not worth it. You're never going to penetrate their shell; and if you come close they'll just start slinging insults.
Thanks Mike. I don't expect to get through to very many (if any) of those who strongly believe the doctrine is biblical, most of them are way too set in their ways to be able to see anything other than that doctrine. My goal is simply to demonstrate to those who are more open minded to truth that Scripture doesn't actually say what it is the believers in everlasting torment in hell insist it does.
The reason I do this is really because I've had many people tell me that thanks to my perseverance in discussing Universal Reconciliation they have come to see the truth about hell and I feel this is part of my calling, at least for the time being.
But it's a good approach. It's been revolutionary to me personally to actually come back to scripture as you suggest and see what it actually does say about hell. The truth is, not much. I can't believe how much of an elaborate theology we've built up on a few dozen random verses.
Thanks, and you are correct.
For those who are interested, the discussion is continuing on The Ooze in this thread, although those who aren't Oozers are encouraged to respond here in my comments section as I intend to continue to extend this challenge to the world until somebody is able to demonstrate that Scripture really does teach it or until everyone concedes that it doesn't. :)
Most excellent Drew! I didn't know you had a blog!!
I too am very appreciative of your perseverance in "universalist evangelicalism". I can't tell you (but you can probably imagine) what a relief it was to finally hear about universalism when I did.
Most excellent Drew! I didn't know you had a blog!!
It's very new. :)
I too am very appreciative of your perseverance in "universalist evangelicalism". I can't tell you (but you can probably imagine) what a relief it was to finally hear about universalism when I did.
And that's why I do it, to help free minds from the "hell" of hell.
hey Mike - there's a thread on the ooze now where somebody mentioned that someone else left because of the jerks, and now he won't tell others where he found this out, because he thinks it would be better not to, and now there's an ongoing joke about how oozers are jerks, and they are even spelling it "jerques" to make it cool ...
look what you started!!!! :D
Great site Mike.Here is an interesting verse from Paul;
"...Who saves US and calls US with a holy calling, NOT IN ACCORD WITH OUR ACTS, but in accord with His OWN PURPOPSE and the grace which is given US in CHRIST JESUS before times eonian yet NOW [62.A.D.] is being manifested through the advent of our Saviour "Christ Jesus", Who INDEED ABOLISHES death, yet illuminates LIFE and INCORRUPTION through "THE EVANGEL" of which I was appointed a herald" [not Peter] and an apostle and a teacher of the nations. FOR WHICH CAUSE I AM SUFFERING....Have a pattern of sound words, which you hear from ME, in faith and love which are in "Christ Jesus"...Of this you are aware, that ALL those [seven eclessias] in the province of Asia were turned from me, ["MY EVANGEL" and continued Peters postponed gospel see Acts.28:28] See [Romans.16:25-27] the postcript added in [62.AD.]
Regards,
David.
For those who haven't seen it, I've also posted a follow up entry: The Universal Reconciliation Challenge.
Hi Mike
I am not surprised that you eternal torment challenge has not been receiving responces. This is hardly a site that conservative evangelicals are likely to be attracted to (with the exception of those hot-heads that want to give you a hard time). The issue of course has been addressed by many people. You might want to look up Don Carson's 'How Long, O Lord?' or perhaps the interesting chapter on 'Hell' in C.S. Lewis' 'The Propblem of Pain.'
Yours Sincerely,
Paul
I would suggest reading Jonathon Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and/or "The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners."
Kind regards.
Yup, nothing like Edwards' delightful writings to make one love God all the more. ;)
I'm really not sure where you're getting your ideas about traditional evangelical Christians believing that we are saved through faith alone apart from works. If one reads the Bible they are clearly in harmony. As the Apostle Paul says that we are saved by grace alone and James mentions that faith without works is dead. They are not in contradiction, but in sync. We ARE saved by grace alone so that no one can boast, but we are justified by our actions. What is faith if it's not put to action? However, as the Bible also states, there is no good deed that can EVER earn us a place in heaven, ever. Now on the subject of hell not being eternal and that, as you put it, "Universal Reconciliation" being true. It is wishful thinking to think that a loving God wouldn't send anyone to hell for eternity for not knowing Christ, but don't we all deserve hell? EVERYONE has fallen short of the glory of God and requires salvation. However, I am one to believe that we are going to be judged on what we know and not on what we don't. People who never know Christ I think are going to be judged on the laws God wrote on their hearts, but that is my opinion. However, as the Bible also says, God knows everyone's heart and motives and he has set us aside before the foundations of the world. He already knows whose going to heaven and who isn't. We aren't all going to heaven, because if that was the case then Christ wouldn't have hit so hard the point of making sure you do not allow anything that will keep you from heaven, hence your verse about plucking out your eye. If it wasn't eternal and everyone ends up in heaven eventually then why bother warning us? I would certainly like to hear more of your interpretation and your references that point to hell not being eternal or of your universal reconciliation. There are many questions I have for the stances you take on Biblical doctrine and the way you portray Christians who don't follow your opinions apparently. But we are all Christians here, come let us reason. We may both learn something.
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